Curse

Avarre · Nov 27, 2006, 01:20 PM // 13:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

Everyone has run mantra of fire in HA

Fixed!

The simplest counter to SF eles is the fact they are essentially glass cannons - with little to no defence of their own. Shut down whatever defence is being put on them, and pressure them until they are incapable of keeping continous damage on your team.

Searing Flames by itself is not a broken skill - what is broken about it is the way it takes practically no player skill to run fairly effectively. This makes the skill's effectiveness at low-mid level play disproportionate to what is expected from that team.

I don't find it imbalanced myself, but it is very easy to be in a poor position and get rocked by the skill (especially against multiple copies).

bungusmaximus · Nov 27, 2006, 01:22 PM // 13:22

OK, agreed, I tried Heroes Ascent this weekend with a SF group and we did manage to apply a lot of pressure, but it's such a predictable build that smart players can abuse it all too well. We rolled all the heroway teams, but the first human team rolled us without too much trouble. It 's all centered around one skill, find a way to disable that skill and you win easily. Other characters have bigger diversity of skills to totally own you, but SF really only has SF.

Xpl0iter · Nov 27, 2006, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

OK, agreed, I tried Heroes Ascent this weekend with a SF group and we did manage to apply a lot of pressure, but it's such a predictable build that smart players can abuse it all too well. We rolled all the heroway teams, but the first human team rolled us without too much trouble. It 's all centered around one skill, find a way to disable that skill and you win easily. Other characters have bigger diversity of skills to totally own you, but SF really only has SF.

Very Well said, Hence, other skills need to be buffed enough to bring them to par with SF. Currently, SF itself is the build, which is a fact that i hate with passion. It is like i detested SS build, working arround 2 or 3 skills. I wish eles had more diversity in their hands with their magic lines.

scyfer · Nov 27, 2006, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carth`

Could your dervish do more than 119 + 119 + 119 + 119 + 119 + burning in 10 seconds to all foes in an area?

It is powerful enough on its own, it's the teams of 4 eles doing the above combo that makes it great.

Tbh the AoE nerf isn't what limits eles, armour is. Paragon teams or teams with MoF are hardly hurt at all. Instead of 119 damage they take something like 20-40 damage.

Guess what? WINTER. That existed before Paragons and is an immediate large area negation of SF, really and any burning skill. And it's a SURE lot more practical than a lot of other suggestions (interrupting, etc). ONE SKILL, not half a bar, not a specific oddball counter, one skill with a halfway decent *or even 0 works, tbh* score in Wilderness Survival. FFS stop complaining and look at all the skills out there! Hell! Any monk can take it!

I'd have to side with the "SF is in no way overpowered" - just fix some of the Air and Water elites pls. (Also *lol* at the "earth doesn't do damage anyway" comment)

Dr Strangelove · Nov 27, 2006, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by scyfer

Guess what? WINTER. That existed before Paragons and is an immediate large area negation of SF, really and any burning skill. And it's a SURE lot more practical than a lot of other suggestions (interrupting, etc). ONE SKILL, not half a bar, not a specific oddball counter, one skill with a halfway decent *or even 0 works, tbh* score in Wilderness Survival. FFS stop complaining and look at all the skills out there! Hell! Any monk can take it!

I'd have to side with the "SF is in no way overpowered" - just fix some of the Air and Water elites pls. (Also *lol* at the "earth doesn't do damage anyway" comment)

How on earth does winter help counter SF? When I run SF groups in HA, I usually take winter since that'll let you ignore mantra of flame and, if you bring mantra of frost, give you a nice energy engine and some damage reduction.

BoredJoe · Nov 27, 2006, 10:40 PM // 22:40

I mainly play in FA and RA sometimes. Initally I felt that SF needed a nerf but now I'm inclined to think that other classes need a buff. Assassins can kill very quickly now and I'm seeing a lot more 100+ damage around, dervishes and rits come to mind. The game just seems to be speeding up and rather than nerf SF, classes like necros and maybe W's need a buff.

Dalimoor_Kalkire · Nov 27, 2006, 10:46 PM // 22:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparks Dawnbringer

Oh for crying out loud, get a life and learn how to counter something. Adapt. I am so tired or you PvP cry babies.

-*Laughs*, crude, but well put. Learn how to adapt. If everyone is packing the same builds then countering it should be more then simple. Too many "SF" groups in Hero's Ascent you say? Fridged Armor and Ward of Harm do the trick for my team. More then enough to cut them down to size.

Just because YOU can't kill them doesn't mean it's overpowered. I swear...before rational thought goes through people's brain they have to first cry "nerf". If I had a nickel for everytime someone said something needed to be "nerfed" that didn't I'd be a millionaire...and own a small island...and a llama.

*Edit* Oh, and "Extinguish FTW"... =^_^=

Skuld · Nov 27, 2006, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dalimoor_Kalkire

-*Laughs*, crude, but well put. Learn how to adapt. If everyone is packing the same builds then countering it should be more then simply. Too many "SF" groups in Hero's Ascent you say? Fridged Armor and Ward of Harm do the trick for my team. More then enough to cut them down to size.

Just because YOU can't kill them doesn't mean it's overpowered. I swear...before rational thought goes through people's brain they have to first cry "nerf". If I had a nickel for everytime someone said something needed to be "nerfed" that didn't I'd be a millionaire...and own a small island...and a llama.

Haha, main reason ppl are pissed is the heroes making stuff boring and energising finale on paragons/paragons in general

bungusmaximus · Nov 28, 2006, 08:29 AM // 08:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xpl0iter

Very Well said, Hence, other skills need to be buffed enough to bring them to par with SF. Currently, SF itself is the build, which is a fact that i hate with passion. It is like i detested SS build, working arround 2 or 3 skills. I wish eles had more diversity in their hands with their magic lines.

There is so much more you can do with an ele then just dish out raw damage, they can snare, knockdown, blind, and apply wards and nasty armors (sliver armor FTW!). Taking that kind of skills makes them 20x more effective in a team build then lame-ass SF alone. When I play air ele in AB I drive everyone crazy with basic stuff like gale and blinding flash wich benefits the rest of the team greatly. When I run searing flames in AB I spend the entire match running for assassins, touchies and thumpers.

Maika Boila Radovu · Nov 28, 2006, 10:07 AM // 10:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

Take for instance IWAY a year ago at this time. It was imbalanced, we accepted it, Anet accepted it and it was remedied. It could be countered though by the means of Wards, some Hexes, enchantments, snares and so on. If you're team used such a build you'd cope with IWAY but say there was a ranger spike team on the following map... can you prepare for all eventualities?

Applying that to todays metagame, you can bring mesmers with energy denial, Backfire and interrupts and your monks can bring Mantra of Flame but if you face a dual-Paragon and Thumper team what use is Mantra of Flame and Backfire?

When reading through this topic I came upon this post. What you've written here is flawed logic. There can be no way to acheive what you would like.

By your reasoning you can't bring specific skills/counters to exploit the weaknesses of another specific build because this would leave you with your own weaknesses that another build would be able to exploit. In your example you wrote, Iway beaten by Warders beaten by Ranger Spike.

If you disagree with builds being specific then by defintion you would agree with the opposite namely builds that were general to deal with all situations. Your question "Can you prepare for all eventualities?" stands as support of this.

However if there were skills to make a build that prepared for all eventualities, didnt present a weakness, or exploited all other builds weaknesses, you would have an overpowered build and thus you would be on the forums demanding it be nerfed. Therefore you are representing flawed logic as their is no way to have a "balanced whole game" in which their was a build that prepared for all eventualities.

In order for this game to function every build has to have strong points and weak points. Even a so called balanced build has it's weak spot in the fact that they can only deal with every situation moderately well and will be overwhelmed by builds specializing in one or two areas.

SF specializes in high AoE dmg and constant pressure. The fact that many people have posted effective counters, some as simple as spreading out would indicate that the build is not over powered. The build gains considerable strength with you as an opponent because it targets your weak spots. Your inflexibility and unwillingness to adapt is what causes the problem. The fact that SF is currently the tool that exposes your weakness is of little matter. The build could just as easily be any other popular build, if you dont adapt to beat it you wont. Yet others find ways to do it.

In my opinion the Ele line up could do with more of a buff across all lines. It would be nice to see skills in all elements that did this much damage or caused this much pressure. It would be my hope that this would allow the ele's some diversity, making it a little harder to bring complete counters to the game. Ele's have been handicapped far too long.

And for the record I do not play an Elementalist!

bungusmaximus · Nov 28, 2006, 10:57 AM // 10:57

Specific counters for any specific builds are brought by teamwork. If a monk heals the other team i throw him down and the team spikes him to death. If a toucher comes in we kite around him and deal ranged damage. If a SF ele comes in we spread out, and in case of rangers, we hide behind obstacles.
Big hammer wammo? blind and knock down as much as possible cos outrunning them is useless. A sin penetrating our backline is priority target, he quickly dies by blind and spike because he is out of healing range. There is no such thing as bringing specific skills against specific builds, it's how you react as a group that matters. A skillbar isn 't everything.

S_Serpent · Nov 28, 2006, 11:12 AM // 11:12

What I don't get is I have run SF in HA and now play with guildies (we all started just recently in HA), we run a 3 ele (1 fire, 1 water, 1 earth) and rest are other proffessions build. It allows us to win 95% against SF builds, so what is over powered with the multiple eles with SF? Its not that we are ****ed either against other teams.

and ok rank doesn't mean a thing, only one off had just achieved rank 3 (and its not me) we win more battles then we lose, so we'll be getting ranked quite soon, if we continue to play HA?

LightningHell · Nov 28, 2006, 11:34 AM // 11:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

There is so much more you can do with an ele then just dish out raw damage, they can snare, knockdown, blind, and apply wards and nasty armors (sliver armor FTW!). Taking that kind of skills makes them 20x more effective in a team build then lame-ass SF alone. When I play air ele in AB I drive everyone crazy with basic stuff like gale and blinding flash wich benefits the rest of the team greatly. When I run searing flames in AB I spend the entire match running for assassins, touchies and thumpers.

Armors are usually useless, last time I got in the game.

bungusmaximus · Nov 28, 2006, 11:51 AM // 11:51

Depends very much on what kind of game you play, I've seen ppl put them to good use with my own eyes (for the record, i mainly play AB when i PvP). I never use them myself though, i do air, no earth. Dervishes use them with an ele secondary, their class synergizes very well with enchantments and it makes up for their low armor level. Just don't say so bluntly that skill x is absolutely useless, if you are a seasoned player (which I think you are) you should be more flexible then that.

NinjaKai · Nov 28, 2006, 11:56 AM // 11:56

My ele uses water/earth magic. I just pack frigid armor into my skill bar. Complete immunity to SF.

sage tank · Nov 28, 2006, 03:14 PM // 15:14

All I can say is "Deprivaty"

That skill is designed to own searing flame, they like to spam? spam all they want if they got the energy for it. I realized that this is a good "offensive" counter to the searing thing. Other count I see so far are too defensive and specifically designed for searing, but this skill works good on everything, monks mes but the aoe energy loss and shut down is pretty good.

No, if you are smart don't bring QZ to counter searing, it is dumb idea, energizing wind will make those searing ele even more powerful as you just reduced their energy cost and recharge time.

xDusT II · Nov 29, 2006, 05:48 AM // 05:48

Frigid Armor.

bhavv · Nov 29, 2006, 12:29 PM // 12:29

Mantra of flame, EXTINGUISH!!!! Ward against elements, ward against harm, protective spitit, MEND CONDITION!!!! frigid armour.......

I dont see why searing flames needs a nerf. Without it, all these skills are useless. Searing flames is WAY too easy to beat in HA, its nowhere near as overpowered as signet of mystic wrath spike or paragon holding.

When I read my GW manual it said elementalists have the highest damage output. Well, actually they never did have untill searing flames, assasins do around 3x more DPS then elementalists do.

Again, Searing flames is pish easy to counter, use the spells I listed.

Or how about Xinraes weapon? Or a good mesmer - Diversion, humility, powerblock, etc etc

Elemental Cotton · Nov 29, 2006, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Mantra of flame, EXTINGUISH!!!! Ward against elements, ward against harm, protective spitit, MEND CONDITION!!!! frigid armour.......

I dont see why searing flames needs a nerf. Without it, all these skills are useless. Searing flames is WAY too easy to beat in HA, its nowhere near as overpowered as signet of mystic wrath spike or paragon holding.

When I read my GW manual it said elementalists have the highest damage output. Well, actually they never did have untill searing flames, assasins do around 3x more DPS then elementalists do.

Again, Searing flames is pish easy to counter, use the spells I listed.

Or how about Xinraes weapon? Or a good mesmer - Diversion, humility, powerblock, etc etc

^ I agree.
Also you could take along a couple of KD warriors. They can knock down the elementalists. Being knocked down means they can't cast, therefore no searing flames.

Xpl0iter · Nov 29, 2006, 07:06 PM // 19:06

you guys are forgetting that whiners don't have time to look at the counters, neither the history of the profession, nor its explanation.